Touch Up's piton has been removed

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby boissal » Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:53 pm

Guess I must have gone a bit higher to find that placement then traversed more. Followed the Durf the first time and assumed he knew what he was doing. The rappel shenanigans proved me wrong.
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby BackClip » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:20 am

bsmoot wrote:No bolt....just slam in a new pin and back it up with gear.


The Godfather has spoken. Seems like the right thing to do no matter how you dissect it IMO.
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby Brian in SLC » Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:53 am

I think if a pin is the best choice for pro at that location....then...go the way of Stem the Tide.

Fat 1/2" bolt w/ hanger, in stainless. I'll donate a powerbolt if consensus agrees (not cheap in 1/2" but I have one layin' around, maybe Mike does too). It'll be bomber for a long time to come. Pins are bomber for awhile...then... I think they're only short term solutions to fixed pro, especially on routes commonly free climbed.

Anyhoo, that's my vote.

The route does see a lot of action and there has been a fair number of accidents on it over the years. None due to a pin pulling, but... It is a bomber pin placement. Wonder if the crack is gettin' bigger? Maybe the whole thing will spall off (Gordon's? Yikes!). RIP Old Reliable, Cataylst, Knuckle Buster...

Maybe the "Godfather" has gotton around to upgrading some hardware across the canyon? Ha ha! Cheers!
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby mountainsense » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:26 pm

+1 for a glue-in LA

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby bsmoot » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:26 pm

Maybe the "Godfather" has gotton around to upgrading some hardware across the canyon? Ha ha! Cheers!


Sheesh!

OK, maybe those of us who have placed a lot of pins can bring a hammer and start testing and replacing pins in this canyon.

I think if a pin is the best choice for pro at that location....then...go the way of Stem the Tide.


Apples and Oranges...Stem the Tide's pin was a knife blade in a poor shallow crack. Touch Up's crack is excellent. A big bolt next to a perfectly protectable crack isn't worthy of LCCs proud history.
Last edited by bsmoot on Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby rudyj2 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:16 am

mountainsense wrote:+1 for a glue-in LA


This makes the most sense IMO.
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby monkey » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:32 am

Any fixed pin is still a time bomb.
Tough call for sure.
shame on mike white for thinking cracks shouldn't be bolted in the first place and shame on him for calling it like it is and hurting my feelings.

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby Brian in SLC » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:55 am

bsmoot wrote:Apples and Oranges...Stem the Tide's pin was a knife blade in a poor shallow crack. Touch Up's crack is good. A big bolt next to a perfectly protectable crack doesn't seem worthy of LCCs proud history.


Hey, 1978 called and wants its gear back...

No one, well, almost no one, carries pins as part of a standard free climbing rack.

"Perfectly protectable crack" implies that you can get gear. Ie, something off a standard rack. Not a fat Lost Arrow piton. I kinda don't want the kids going around and thinkin' whackin' a bunch of pins into routes like the Green A is acceptable. I think the community has moved past that.

Seem to dimly recall there were two fixed pins on Stem the Tide...now both bolts? Anyhoo...

Not that I'm suggesting the Schoolroom Roof should be bolted...but...its an aid climb. Remember how much fun it was replacing all those pins? Ha ha...

Glued in pin? Ugh.
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby ddriver » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:48 am

no bolts please

Glue doesn't sound appealing either. Once the eye breaks off you're stuck with a glued-in stub.

Seems there's plenty decent gear on this (admitting its been too long to remember), but don't mind seeing a replacement pin there.

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby bsmoot » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:01 pm

Hey, 1978 called and wants its gear back...

No one, well, almost no one, carries pins as part of a standard free climbing rack.

"Perfectly protectable crack" implies that you can get gear. Ie, something off a standard rack. Not a fat Lost Arrow piton. I kinda don't want the kids going around and thinkin' whackin' a bunch of pins into routes like the Green A is acceptable. I think the community has moved past that.


Brian, IMO your comments are a nice overreaction....it's not going to happen.

Here's my own overreaction...we could just remove every fixed pin in LCC and replace them with big super safe bolts. I mean pins aren't safe! Then LCC will be known as the place where cracks are bolted!

Understand your concern for safety, but the first ascent party didn't bolt the crack. Climbers of the 50's 60's & 70's took plenty of falls on pins...they're still alive. You've fixed pins on some of your own routes.

No Bolt
Last edited by bsmoot on Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby boissal » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:54 pm

We should take this to the proj. I'm sure there will be an equal number of shouted opinions for a new pin, a bolt, and no fixed gear.

Making a distinction between putting a bolt or a bomber pin near/in a protectable crack seems a bit arbitrary. What matters is that bomber fixed gear goes in a spot that can be protected otherwise. If the consensus is that a fixed piece needs to go back in for safety reasons, we might as well make it as serviceable and bomber as possible since we've already accepted the addition of fixed gear to something that can be protected naturally. If you're going to chew me up for saying that bomber pin = bolt, remember that the only thing that really separates them is the rate at which they decay, and that rate is pretty damn slow. Bolted crack sounds worse than pinned crack but would the geezer wall have fared any better had all the fixed pro been pounded in cracks? I doubt it...

On the other hand, the pin went in during the FA because there were no gear options available at the time other than a large set of brass balls. We need to clearly assess whether the crack is protectable by modern standards - and I don't mean a shitty ballnut backed up by a knotted sling or a Tenesmus Special blue TCU (no offense meant Clay, your confidence in your gear is otherworldly). If there are a couple bomber nuts of C3s to be had for anyone with decent trad skills, I think the proud LCC tradition dictates that the old stuff not be replaced. Sure, it makes the climb considerably more serious. Pumped people won't be able to gun for the pin and make the thank-Jeebus clip any longer. I'll go back to being intimidated by the route as I usually get pumped and suffer from early-onset freakoutitis up there... Touch-up is an old 9+, it's not supposed to be cake anyway.

Tough one uh?
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby Brian in SLC » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:00 pm

bsmoot wrote:[Brian, IMO your comments are a nice overreaction....it's not going to happen.


Oh, it could happen. Has on a number of routes. Equipment Overhang? There's a huge list of routes that have sprouted bolts in place of pitons for pro.

Cranial? Ugh...don't even want to open that can of worms...ha ha...

Here's Kim's take on the Bungle:

"Originally climbed with just the two old bolts - one down low and the other above the crux on the slab. We placed a lost arrow in the crack and backed it up with half a dozen nuts. A bolt there is probably a better idea."

Commonly done in Little Cottonwood.

Nah, just us chickens right now, Alexis. The 'proj probably not the best place to sort this one out.

I'm not hard over either way. I just think fixed pins should go the way of the dodo as fixed protection on free climbs.

Replace that pin enough times and the crack will take a small cam!
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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby boissal » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:08 pm

Brian in SLC wrote:The 'proj probably not the best place to sort this one out.

You'd pass on some input from Boulder BroBrah?
Sigh...

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby monkey » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:19 pm

Well lets go take a look at it, and talk to the FA before anything is done.
Could replace the second bolt on all chalk while we are there.
I would rather see the route restored to its original condition, but it still sounds like a bad idea to me.
Pulled too many fixed pins by hand in my day.
shame on mike white for thinking cracks shouldn't be bolted in the first place and shame on him for calling it like it is and hurting my feelings.

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Re: Touch Up's piton has been removed

Postby mountainsense » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:28 pm

For what it's worth, I say replace the pin. It is not our mandate now, or for that matter, in perpetuity, to guarantee climbers' safety. As much as I would hate to hear that someone blew it there and and hurt themselves, something as fundamental as sound gear assessment is--and shall always be--the sole responsibility of the climber, whether it's their own, or it's fixed. Anyone who ventures outdoors and assumes that the mountains and everything in them are static should probably re-evaluate the nature of risk inherent in all forms of climbing. Safety is the goal, NOT the rule. I was kidding about the glue-in LA... S


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