Great White Bridge Opportunity

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sevrdhed
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby sevrdhed » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:13 am

denny wrote:I feel mountain bikers have as much right to these trails as anybody.


I 100% agree with you. That's not the problem. The problem is, they went in and CHANGED the trails completely. The only people who have the right to do that are the people who own the land. Who's that in this case? That's right - the forest service.

I guarantee if rangers started coming across huge platforms built up for the purpose of taking pictures of boulder problems, we'd all be in the same mess of hot water - here's the difference. We know better, and I for one wouldn't let that shit happen to fuck up MY ability to go out and play in LCC. Other MTBers should've done the same thing.... "Hey, these giant structures that are really cool should probably also have permission first dont ya think?"


Seriously, go up there. Check it out. Park at the dirt road pulloff next to the gate, a little ways before tanners. Just past the gate (that you shouldn't be going through cause it's closed off), take an immediate right down a fairly obvious trail. Then just start walkin.... you'll be highly impressed at the amount of shit that went in just that section alone.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby jun » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:05 am

First, there is no reason for FS officials to be voted in. They simply enforce a recognized federal set of rules that we are all required to abide by.

And to be clear, cutting down trees in the forest is totally fine . . . as long as you contact and obtain approval from the FS.

Also, creating new trails is totally fine . . . as long as you contact and obtain approval from the FS.

Grazing cattle is totally fine . . . as long as you contact and obtain approval from the FS.

Get where this is going? FS land is labeled "multi-use", but you have to follow the guidelines.

In the news video the mountain biker representative said that he had tried to contact and work with the FS for the last three years and they were unresponsive. That's a load of crap. Climbers, hikers, and private land work with them every day without any problems. I have personally contacted and discussed things with them and they have been nothing but helpful. They obviously made no effort.

And like most idiots, their biggest mistake was two-fold: 1. riding like maniacs through the campground; 2. (and most importantly) - posting video of themselves all over the internet.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby price1869 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 10:53 am

Gotta stop lurking and start getting flamed again sometime, I guess ....

It's interesting that people take such a justified view of their own actions, but are so quick to condemn the actions of another party. Take for instance the SLCA project on Saturday. When the FS shut us down on cleaning up the Egg trail, a party quickly headed to private property to do some trail maintenance. When that "maintenance" turned into full fledged trundling and attempted trail building, I decided it was a bad idea and started back down the trail to look for some reasonable service.

When I voiced my opinion about what was going on, I was told, "Fuck the Church. We've tried talking to them, and they don't listen. The only way to get something done up here is to just do it. We've got every right to be here too."

And don't think that people aren't posting video of that too: (link to come later - it's on TC's facebook)

In ways, similar to DP climbing Delicate Arch - he thought he had every right to do what he wanted on public land. Really he just made access harder for everyone. I'm not posing a solution here, just thought that maybe we're throwing stones from our own glass fortress.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby boissal » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:45 am

price1869 wrote:"Fuck the Church. We've tried talking to them, and they don't listen. The only way to get something done up here is to just do it. We've got every right to be here too."

Who told you that? Some gaper volunteer (aka me) or a board member? After years of dealing with the FS/Church to maintain access I find it hard to believe that they'd have that attitude, unless if was a knee-jerk response to the dick move the FS pulled the night before. I'd be beyond pissed if I had 120 volunteers on hand, a completely blown out egg trail and some paper-shuffler telling me not to work on it cause a retarded group of bikers have ruined a long established trust relationship.

Scrub oak will grow back. I'm all for burning the shit out of it instead of just cutting a trail.

edit to add: sounds like I'm trying to justify our actions here; I'm not. That project was very biker-like except in its scope. I was just pointing out why it happened. I'm sure the bikers would say they did it cause the FS was unresponsive; at least we use to have their blessing...
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby Tenesmus » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:25 pm

Also, creating new trails is totally fine . . . as long as you contact and obtain approval from the FS.

Grazing cattle is totally fine . . . as long as you contact and obtain approval from the FS.

Get where this is going? FS land is labeled "multi-use", but you have to follow the guidelines.

Jun, I think you're grossly oversimplifying the issues here. The major caveat you list is 'as long as you contact and obtain approval from the FS' and that can take years or never come. For example, a grazing permit is more valuable than gold in many areas of the West and generally irreplaceable. What better way to subsidize the very ranchers who tout the Constitution and hate Federal oversight?

Same thing for the logging companies with timber permits. Sure, you can get a small timber harvesting permit for private use down in the forests around Cedar. Do they let people do that right along the Wasatch front?

Trails are another matter all together. Trying to 'contact and obtain approval from the FS' is something we've been doing and that the mountain bikers tried to do. Creating a sanctioned trail on FS land is no easy task. JK's and the Access Fund have been trying for years to get something going in AF but they won't let us. Why do you think we keep going back to LCC and why do you think we went to Fergy last year?

The mt bikers altered an existing social trail, which the FS didn't approve. That's a huge faux pas and the FS punished them for it.

I know of at least one person with the SLCA who spent about 6 years trying to get the Egg trail approved and sanctioned. We thought we had it but in the end it is unclear. So, say we would have gone on with our plan and the FS became agitated with what we'd done? What might they do with our 'social trail' then? Its a scary proposition for me.

Price brings up an important point about the Church. However, we were taking an unstable area with recent slide activity and shoring it up so on one would have a boulder topple onto them. That's a huge risk management relief for them and I'm guessing a bonus.

Getting offended and re-stating inflammatory comments only hurts both sides of the equation. I'm not saying it isn't easy to get bothered by that stuff. But bringing it to light on the internet won't help your cause. It is unfortunate that the frustrated attitude with the Church is still there but surely you can see why. It makes risk management sense for them to not deal with us and it makes sense for us to misunderstand their lack of empathy with our recreation. Flying under the radar isn't necessarily good policy with any landowner. However, knowing your audience is.

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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby price1869 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:43 pm

work - yes, yes I do
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby ZOSO » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:59 pm

jun wrote:In the news video the mountain biker representative said that he had tried to contact and work with the FS for the last three years and they were unresponsive. That's a load of crap.


And like most idiots, their biggest mistake was two-fold: 1. riding like maniacs through the campground; 2. (and most importantly) - posting video of themselves all over the internet.


Right back @ you. It IS NOT a load that we tried to work with the FS for 3 years. Just because some groups may have had better response doesn't mean the mtn bikers are full of it. Mike (the guy on the news video) has had many conflicting things told him from the FS many times. It's been very frustrating.

I entirely agree your second point of course.

In regards to the "stunts" that exist on the trail now, that is all private property to my knowledge and is therefore not A FS issue. One area in the Wasatch Resort area is all private property and has therefore been left alone. In fact, the builders of this spot personally met with some FS personelle to make sure they were on private land.


It's interesting to me as a climber and a mtn biker that this issue isn't a little more universally understood. Think about it. Climbers trails to crags and the rock itself are really not that different than the mtn biking issue. As climbers we have had the luxury for the most part of having trails to our crags and putting bolts in and doing some gardening (he he, another can of worms).

Instead of bitching about the mtn bikers, we should all work together. (There, I said the obvious. Remember, we are all winners)

I hope the FS doesn't start coming down hard on climbing related issues of course. I don't necessarily think we can blame mtn bikers if this happens either.

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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby boissal » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:04 pm

ZOSO wrote:I hope the FS doesn't start coming down hard on climbing related issues of course. I don't necessarily think we can blame mtn bikers if this happens either.

I'm sure the light train option that was mentioned in the last survey will be implemented solely because of the bikers and this particular incident...
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby ZOSO » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:08 pm

Only if the train could go over some biker built stunts. Now that would be kickin. yuk yuk

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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby price1869 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:12 pm

It's tough to balance conservation of limited resources and big-brother society. Glad it's not my job. I think the FS response to both the Egg trail and the bikers is totally ridiculous.

The Church land is private, and technically they don't allow climbing on it, they just turn a blind eye. Seems to me that any attention is bad attention, so strictly my opinion is that we don't do service projects on their land, with or without permission. In other words, if we ask to build a trail on church property, I can see the church responding, "No you're not supposed to be up there anyway." If we build the trail w/out permission, it's probably worse.

I'm sure we could get away with cleanup of trash, and "shoring up" an unstable area, but I felt like the project on saturday went a little beyond "shoring up". Either way, complex issue for sure. Let's get back to fighting about the geezer wall and ripping on MP.com
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby boissal » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:14 pm

price1869 wrote:Let's get back to fighting about the geezer wall and ripping on MP.com

Word.
I think the egg trail should still be maintained by smaller crews outside of SLCA events. Work done under the radar won't be bothering anybody.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby price1869 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:17 pm

boissal wrote:
price1869 wrote:Let's get back to fighting about the geezer wall and ripping on MP.com

Word.
I think the egg trail should still be maintained by smaller crews outside of SLCA events. Work done under the radar won't be bothering anybody.


+1

SLCA tried to do a good thing in the right way and got screwed for it. Fun event all in all though.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby jun » Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:41 pm

This actually brings up a question from me since this debate started.

How does the FS feel about us fixing landings, especially those that are pretty significant?

Just curious.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby price1869 » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:07 pm

jun wrote:This actually brings up a question from me since this debate started.

How does the FS feel about us fixing landings, especially those that are pretty significant?

Just curious.


99% of landings are fixed by tying into a rope :)

But seriously, I'm guessing the OZFS (over zealous forrest service) would be happy to freak out about fixed up landings. I mean, aren't they the green-uniform equivalent of the Cottonwood Heights PD? Gotta find someone's day to ruin or they're not doing their job.
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Re: Great White Bridge Opportunity

Postby grk10vq » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:45 pm

boissal wrote:Who told you that? Some gaper volunteer (aka me) or a board member?

he didn't have a crowbar did he?
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