ICE CLIMBING IS NOT SPORT CLIMBING!!!

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sevrdhed
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Re: I'm Comfussed

Postby sevrdhed » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:26 am

Sunny-D wrote:with my wife teaching her how to build anchors


So awesome.

builttospill
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Postby builttospill » Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:14 am

I noticed those chains a couple weeks ago as well.

I don't really care one way or the other, but the bolts that those things are attached to have been there awhile (at least some of them). Two years ago they were there and people had rigged wire to stick through the ice to anchor to. I'm not sure if it was Hansens, Exum or a UVSC class, but there are always groups learning and "guiding" on the apron.

For what it's worth, this seems safer than the wire that was there previously but--like others--I've never had trouble building anchors with equalized screws. If the ice is thick enough to climb there, it's plenty thick to take 3 16cm screws to the eye.

Your call, but I'd check with Dustin at Hansens just to see first. The bolts on the boulder are in a bad spot for rapping. Anyone rapping off that is either blind or has no consideration for the groups below them when there is a quick and safe walk-off to the west. But they do make a decent anchor.

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Postby Sunny-D » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:01 pm

I definitely like the idea of having anchors on the boulder at the top of the apron. It used to be quite scary trying to belay someone up to that point without anything to anchor into. Sitting in the snow bracing in loose scree with your feet. I would like to make those anchors safer by putting hangers in instead of the chain. And yes the chain gives the idea that you just rap back down on all the poor folks below when there is the walk off or the rap anchors 50-60 feet left.
I would like to see the chain and anchor go away...
I think the idea with the wire was to try and mark the place of the 2 bolts that someone placed in the flow about 3-4 years ago. I thought that those were in a bad location to start off with. I think the furthest left of the three sets of chain is attached to that set of bolts the other 2 are new this year.

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Postby builttospill » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:41 pm

good call Sunny-D. I don't have a clear recollection because generally the bolts that were there were not always THAT convenient for where my group wanted to toprope. So I usually used screws anyway. I don't think that it's going to ruin anyone's day to have them removed. If you go ice climbing (even if planning on toproping) without bringing a few screws, you might deserve to not be able to climb that day.

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db
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Postby db » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:01 pm

Maybe I am missing something--since when does a bolted anchor make it a sport route? If you are all into chopping bollards and making v-threads, go right ahead. I'll throw my cord through a couple of beefy bolts to head home every time.

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Postby Sunny-D » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:08 pm

Read the whole post... I am not against bolts or bolt anchors. It would and is a long hike off the top of the stairway with out bolts to rap from.I am asking about 3 new sets of bolts that have nothing to do with rap anchors. They have been placed right in the middle of the apron on the first ledge-- strickly for top roping. Those are the anchors I would like to see removed.
Dallen

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Postby builttospill » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:31 pm

As a matter of fact, I do enjoy chopping a good bollard. Nothing like it.

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MikeA
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Postby MikeA » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:23 am

I don't have a problem with the bolted anchors, and I am opposed to you removing them.

Personally I have never, nor can I ever foresee myself ever toproping the first pitch of stairway. I've always climbed as high as I could, but I would never be so arrogant and self-centered as to deny other people that option. V-threads are not reliable anchors. skim through "Accidents in NA Mountaineering" and you can find several accounts of people falling to their deaths when those things fail.

Let's face it, the first pitch of Stairway is probably the most easily accessible ice climb in the entire state, you can walk to the top of it to set up TR's, it should probably have bolts to handle the traffic. Whether you approve or not, the cat's out of the bag. Ice climbing is no longer a fringe activity, there will continue to be more and more crowds, and this sort of stuff will continue to happen to accomodate them.

PS, it's the 21st century, there are probably more than 1 million bolts in the Wasatch...perhaps it's time to move on?

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jun
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Postby jun » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:30 am

I propose we do a count of the total amount of bolts sunk into rock in the Wasatch Range.

If there aren't 1 million, feel free to chop them all.


i went ice climbing for the first time today. we used one of the chain anchors half way up the first pitch on the apron along with a screw to back them up.
i was grateful for them as it gave me added confidence.

as we moved left to the higher routes (i don't know what it was called) builttospill had to build an anchor from screws. I trust him and was fine with that too.

the anchors are there and they get used a lot. my opinion is to just let it die. if you remove them they'll be back in a week. i guarantee that the people or groups or companies who put them up have more money than you and they'll be more than happy to just plop them right back in. ok, well the people who put them up have more money than me. that's more accurate.
Up, way up.

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Postby builttospill » Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:26 pm

for what it's worth I'm going renege slightly on my previous statements. I still don't care much one way or the other since I don't TR there too much. However, as jun mentioned, we did start on the chain anchors and then move over to an anchor built from screws and the bolts did give me added confidence. I'm not usually one to eschew traditional protection for the sake of safety, but in this case I was a bit nervous about long term TR'ing on screws. I was much more comfortable on the bolts.

Like I said, I have no opinion one way or the other. The reality is that no one is clipping those bolts on their way up P1 of Stairway.

I'd prefer to TR off the bolts in the future, but won't be heartbroken either way.

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Postby Sunny-D » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:54 am

I will be out there again on Friday and Saturday, I like the idea of learning to place gear, regardless of which century I am in. By placing bolts in established areas you are inviting the idea to spread to other areas and mediums heaven forbid... I am not removing the anchors but something to think about. What happens when bolts start to appear oh say in Little Cottonwood canyon just so someone can top rope and work on a problem "but make it safer"... I realize that ice is not the "fringe" sport that it used to be but neither is rock climbing. I think you have to draw a line somewhere. Or should I just bolt anything that I want reguardless of if it has been climbed or not. (I am not or would not ever do this). All I am saying is that this area has been in use for 30+ years as a top rope area. Everyone in the past as used screws right in the area that I am talking about and that was/is the standard. Just my thoughts.
Progress for the sake of progess is not always the best.

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sevrdhed
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Postby sevrdhed » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:18 pm

It's a tough issue. On the one hand, I can see how having bolts on top of the first pitch of the stairway would be ok. After all, like Mike said, it gets tons of traffic, and it's much safer to have those bolts there than to have people always chopping holes in the ice to belay from. I also like the idea of being able to go there without hassling you REAL ice climbers to take me and do all the hard work for me (like setting up anchors).

On the other hand, I agree with sunny-d as well. I would hate to see this sort of thing spread to other climbs. For example, if I saw a bolt on top of some boulder problems in little, I'd be pissed. (reminds me, there's a bolt that I still need to fix out there). To me, the actual physical aspect of climbing is only half the fun of climbing. The mental aspect of committing to a climb knowing it could hurt you, and scaring the shit out of yourself, is the other half.

One other question I had regarding the placing of bolts on ice climbs. I recall hearing about issues with bolts in particularly wet areas, such as Thailand, in which even stainless steel bolts get corroded very quickly. I wonder how much of an issue that is with bolts that, for 3/4's of the year, have water running over them. To me, that could become an even bigger safety challenge. How many people are going to go up there and set up a toprope without looking at them to see if they need replacing?

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Postby builttospill » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:46 pm

I've only seen the actual bolts once in 4 years of climbing there. They are always buried in ice, until late in the year (or early) when it is deteriorating rapidly.

Also note that placing ice screws is not rocket science Steve. You could easily toprope at Stairway with enough caution.

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Postby Sunny-D » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:54 pm

I have seen the bolts and am pretty sure that they are not stainless but I can't remember for sure. Hmmm seems like screws might be safer...I might have to chop down through the ice on Friday and figure out how the bolts/anchors are placed and what kind of bolts they are. I am all about safe. I am probably the biggest chicken out there and want solid anchors as much as the next guy.


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