ICE CLIMBING IS NOT SPORT CLIMBING!!!

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Sunny-D
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ICE CLIMBING IS NOT SPORT CLIMBING!!!

Postby Sunny-D » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:09 am

Ice Climbing is not Sport Climbing and the Apron of the Stairway in Provo Canyon is not Ouray...
I was out this morning and noticed as I climbed by them that someone has put 3 sets of chain anchors on the first tier of the Apron. What is up with that? I realize it makes it really easy to top rope, but people have been top roping here for over 30 years with out these eyesores. Whoever did it put conduit sticking straight out with chain attached. Good Idea if you are climbing in Ouray, Co. Bad for the apron. It is really easy to place good strong screws in all three of the locations that these anchors are. In fact in the past that is why there have never been bolts there, the ice gets really thick. LEARN TO PLACE GEAR AND COUGH UP AND BY A COUPLE OF SCREWS FOR YOUR ANCHORS... Come on we are not sport climbing here...
You can built bomber anchors in the ice in this area. One screw and a coat hanger v thread tool and you can built to your hearts content. I know, I have personally hung, close to 20 ropes in that area all off of V thread anchors at one time. I am temped next time I am up there to pull the chain and conduit out of the ice... Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?
There are now 2 sets of chains on the big boulder at the top of the apron. Both sets are build very old school with the bolts going directly through the chain with washers holding the bolts on. It looks like they are set up to rap off the boulder... Bad idea. There are always people down below on the apron. There is a rap station 75 ft to the right and it is easy to walk off that section to the right. Come on! At least spent a couple more dollars and put in good climbing hangers. So there won't be leveraging on the chain.

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sevrdhed
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Postby sevrdhed » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:34 pm

and here, I thought this thread was going to be about how crappy I am at sport climbing.


Sucks that people are randomly adding anchors to shit, especially poorly placed anchors like it sounds like the bolt through the chains are.

Personally, (having absolutely no experience that would give me any real say in the matter) it seems to me that if there's already excellent natural anchor spots, which it sounds like there are, then it would be silly to place bolted anchors. Learning to build anchors is part of the game. It would be like putting bolted anchors at the top of every pitch of school room.

But again, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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jun
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Postby jun » Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:11 pm

it's true.

you don't have any idea.


shut up.



let's go ice climbing on tuesday!
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bsmoot
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Postby bsmoot » Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:03 pm

I agree about the chain anchors, but an effort should be made to contact the fellows who installed the chains first...and that might not be easy to find out either. Do you have any photos?

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Pictures Forth Coming

Postby Sunny-D » Sat Dec 15, 2007 1:19 pm

Next time I am up at the Stairway I wll get some pictures of the chains and anchors. I would like to contact the person or people that put these anchors in to find out what they are thinking and if removed return the hardware to them.

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PunchKing
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I'm Comfussed

Postby PunchKing » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:14 pm

So they put the anchors in the rock? As the ice comes wouldn't they just get covered anyway? I am with sev though no clue.

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stymingersfink
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P3 Rap Tree

Postby stymingersfink » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:27 pm

Was up at the top of Stairway P3 this afternoon (had we started earlier, and had more energy, we could have climbed ice to the top of P6!) and rapped off from there. Cleaned most of the tat from the rap tree, and added our own sling, but in doing so began thinking about the lifespan of that poor little half-dead tree, hanging there on the edge of the cliff.

Sure, the life that's in it is pretty robust, but a majority of the trunk is in pretty poor shape IMHO, a swiss-cheese bug-eaten heart, with a thin rind of live bark..

With this in mind, I'm wondering:

What would you all think of adding some rap chains to the rock face just two steps away to the west? It would possibly prevent placing any more stress on the tree itself, but it would definitely prevent the possibility of having that tree give up the ghost at some point while someone's mid-rap. It shouldn't be too difficult to clear the short slope to the cliff edge of any potential rock-bombs, and it's near enough to the edge that it shouldn't make the rope pull any more difficult.

Input?
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Sunny-D
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Postby Sunny-D » Sat Dec 15, 2007 9:42 pm

I have thought about this for years. that little tree does need some help. It would be very easy to put in an anchor and save the tree also making the route easier to get off of and safer. I would be for it, Just make sure the right gear is used.

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stymingersfink
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Postby stymingersfink » Sat Dec 15, 2007 10:11 pm

Sunny-D wrote:I have thought about this for years. that little tree does need some help. It would be very easy to put in an anchor and save the tree also making the route easier to get off of and safer. I would be for it, Just make sure the right gear is used.
Yeah, that's the rub. my partner's got a bolt gun from work, but what would be the best... two standard bolt hangers with lengths of chain, or those same bolt hangers with a sling/rap ring attached?

I'd have to vote chain.
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Postby Sunny-D » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:33 am

I would have to say chain...if done right it will last the longest and is strong and secure. I also have access to a drill and all the other stuff for the anchor. Are you thinking about putting the rap anchor behind the tree about 2-3 feet right or left? This will definitely save the tree up there.

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Re: I'm Comfussed

Postby Sunny-D » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:44 am

PunchKing wrote:So they put the anchors in the rock? As the ice comes wouldn't they just get covered anyway? I am with sev though no clue.


The ice is covering the actual bolts, but from what I could see the chain goes directly to the bolts, then the conduit is rigged to stick straight out of the ice and the chain is wired to the conduit to keep it from getting totally covered by the ice. I will definitely get some pictures next time I am in the canyon. Like I said it is a good idea if this were Ouray. But its not and this area has been top roped for over 30 years without those anchors. I think anyone learning to climb should take the time and put in the energy to learn how to place the right gear even if it is for just top ropes. This area is great for that nice flat ledge to work off of. Fat ice... In fact in a week the chain will probably be covered if it stays cold. I was up there again on Friday night with my wife teaching her how to build anchors and we built a bomber anchor right next to one of the offending chain anchors with 2 screws and a V-thread. It took me about 10 minutes to get the whole thing rigged and ready to climb.
I personally think the chain should go. I do want to get ahold of whoever put them in and talk with them...

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Tenesmus
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Postby Tenesmus » Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:23 pm

I must add that SunnyD has a long track record of making incredibly bomber, trustworthy anchors. If he says they're bomber TR with a v-thread and screws then they absolutely are. I will haul a drill on my back up there for those other anchors but only if we get input from the Brians and JK, etc first.

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Postby D Master K » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:35 pm

Are the anchors on the 1st tier the ones off to the left, that have been there for years. I thought the quys at Hansens put those up years ago?
The boulder had anchors for about ten years also. I liked using them when I belayed my parters up for the 2nd pitch. Not sure who put them up and when.
I like the idea of saving the tree on the 3rd pitch, but I thought that there was already another set down and right of the tree.
Haven't seen the pipe thing yet.

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stymingersfink
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Postby stymingersfink » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:51 pm

Sunny-D wrote:I would have to say chain...if done right it will last the longest and is strong and secure. I also have access to a drill and all the other stuff for the anchor. Are you thinking about putting the rap anchor behind the tree about 2-3 feet right or left? This will definitely save the tree up there.
Three feet to the right, about five feet back from the lip of the cliff. There is a large flat surface (about 4'x6') in the limestone which would accommodate a set of chains quite nicely, as it appears quite stable.

As stated before, my big concern would be cleaning the ramp between the face and the cliff edge of the many rocks which might lie under the snow cover, as reducing the chances of bringing them down while pulling the ropes would also be a concern.



****the following is purely conjecture****


as far as the chains which have sprouted over the past few years near the mid-point ledge on P1... I'm wondering if someone associated with Exum made the original placements. I participated in one of their Guide's Day a few years back, and they were teaching proper V-Thread techniques, but perhaps they're looking for a little break on their insurance policy by installing the chains?
****the preceding has been purely conjecture****
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stymingersfink
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Postby stymingersfink » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:53 pm

D Master K wrote:I like the idea of saving the tree on the 3rd pitch, but I thought that there was already another set down and right of the tree.
Haven't seen the pipe thing yet.
Six inches down and anywhere right of that tree is a 180' cliff.
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