your mp moment of zen...

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rudyj2
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby rudyj2 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:23 am

After several discussions with members of the climbing community regarding the retro-bolting that was done on the right side of Penitentiary Wall. The bolts have been removed. The upper anchors remain. The reasons the bolts were removed are as follows:

1. They were on well established existing routes (S&M and Jailbait).

2. They were on a publicized extension of an existing route (B&D)

3. They were on variations of an existing route (Jailbait)

4. The routes in question have been climbed with gear.

5. Many of the bolts were placed with in approximately 2 feet of gear placements.

6. It does not appear that the person whom added the bolts made any attempt to contact the FA parties about retro bolting the routes. Of which many are still active in the climbing community.

7. It does not appear that the person whom added the bolts made any attempt to query the climbing community about retro bolting established routes.

A total of 23 bolts were removed with the holes patched. A said above, the anchors, though not needed remain as they make the combination of S&M with B&D a fully independent line from that of Jailbait. The B&D finish to S&M previously shared the last few feet with Jailbait and utilized those anchors. (Note the description of B&D that was posted in the comments for S&M some two years ago has now been incorporated into the S&M description).

Attempts have been made to contact the person responsible for the retro bolting to return the hangers. If hangers are not claimed by the end of the month they will be donated to the rebolting efforts by the climbing community.

A few additional comments. In talking with folks regarding this incident, the totality of the retro bolting was felt to be pretty egregious. Some were surprised by the shear number of bolts placed. Routes that are at best 80-85 feet long and were bolted more like a gym route than a sport route. In most cases, such bolting would not be condoned by the climbers community or with land managers.

Speaking of land managers and while not a factor in the decision to remove the bolts, folks should realize that much of the climbing on the south side of Big Cottonwood Canyon is within the Twin Peaks Wilderness. As such, there is a “higher” standard for management that prohibits the usage of power drills (hand drilling is still allowed).

I hope the above provides enough information on the situation and in the future folks will do their homework before placing bolts on established routes. There are many routes out there that may not look like trad routes or a variation but in fact they are. So when in doubt post up before ya bolt up.
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grk10vq
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby grk10vq » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:53 pm

well played allen.
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boissal
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby boissal » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:21 am

How about this which I'm not sure was included in the above:

A bolted line had appeared on the left side of the cliff, just to the left of Jack the Ripper, that seems to squeeze in on Life Sentence. Did those bolts get pulled?
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grk10vq
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby grk10vq » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:20 pm

jesus bolting christ!
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bsmoot
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby bsmoot » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:34 pm

This is now a nice trad area again. Hopefully it will stay that way.

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ZOSO
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby ZOSO » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:19 am

Really glad BCC isn't turning into Rock Canyon in this regard. Thanks to those involved.

tanderson
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby tanderson » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:28 am

2 thumbs up

tanderson
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby tanderson » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:17 pm

One more post. If anybody needs help protecting routes from this type of stuff, feel free to give an email. buildingeye@gmail.com. I'm glad to see action being swiftly taken. I owe Allen a beverage of his choice.

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Tenesmus
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby Tenesmus » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:05 am

That choppinbolts dude looks like a huge troll or a total deuschbag.

By choppinBolts
Another comfortable climb, thanks to fixed pro. So is it a trad climb then? Maybe the bolts were placed traditionally, but what the heck? There are places for gear along the way. They are spaced out, and there is fall potential, but the climb could be done safely without the fixed protection. Is climbing meant to be comfortable? Part of the valuable problem solving climbing offers is how you're going to manage the danger. This climb is unarguably a classic!

By Boissal
What exactly does "maybe the bolts were placed traditionally" mean? On lead by hand?? You do realize that when this line went up and was freed (early 70s) the "places for gear along the way" weren't exactly stellar placements for nuts and hexes? The bolt was necessary at the time. It may be somewhat superfluous now but you may want to consider the context in which it was placed and recognize its historical purpose... I guarantee the dudes who placed that hardware understood the mind game of managing danger better than you ever will.
BTW, did you clip the bolt?

By JimG
Yeah, Jack Roberts was such a pussy back in 1976. Nice guy with an impressive climbing career. Too bad he was killed a couple of years ago ice climbing.

By bsmoot
Here's a little history back in the 70's about the bolts.
Kim Miller began working on the FFA, Mid 70's. There were NO bolts on the route at the time. He freed it close to the same time Roberts freed it. He also said:
"After this, Mark Ward put a bolt in at the crux first move, left of the crack. He and I had both ripped pieces out from that area so added a bolt. I put a great Lost Arrow pin in at the roof before the final lie back. This was later - way later - replaced with another bolt."

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Tenesmus
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby Tenesmus » Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:06 am

By choppinBolts
I think it would have been cool to climb this without the bolt. Would have been heady and awesome.

By Boissal
Try it and report back. Skipping the bolt isn't too hard to do... Much harder than just talking about it though.

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boissal
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby boissal » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:22 am

There's also this:
about After the Fall wrote:No reason for these 4 bolts to be at the bottom. In the old days, this would be controversial, but now people are soft. At least I wish there were only 2 bolts like there used to be. Its pretty much 4th class up to the crack.


And this:
about 11th Hour on Sundial wrote:I was wondering how long this outing might take. No one mentioned anything in the description or comments. I figured about 10 hours from looking at the terrain and the climbing. It was exactly that and we had a fairly relaxed pace. This included wandering off route, chatting on the summit for a while, taking our time to hydrate and eat, and not being in a hurry. So it could definitely be done in less time. Enjoy (the unscared bolt-free rock).


And this which I can't really disagree with but my hypocrisy knows no bounds:
Squawstruck wrote:My opinion on this climb, its over rated. It rains rock fall and is over bolted. The folks who put this up did a great job and worked hard, but I have never had to be so mindful of z-clipping. They could have done this safely with way fewer bolts. This is definitely an adventure, but its less than amazing in terms of rock quality and aesthetics of the line.


Fussing around about the definition of trad: check
Pre-spraying about not clipping bolts on lines he hasn't done: check
Downgrading and casual spraying: check
Mid-twenties bro claiming back-in-ze-day ethics: check
Same bro claiming people climbing in EBs with hexes are pussies for bolting runouts: check
Giving 1-star to Beckey's Wall and Crescent Crack: check

Twat factor: 11.
Recommendation: join that meet-up group run by TC.
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boissal
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby boissal » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:36 am

Funny stuff following up a change in the consensus rating from average to median...

How about a bot that tracks the ratings of individual users. If their ratings are consistently above the median, 3 gunks climbers are dispatched to their door to endlessly lecture about kids these days.

If their ratings are consistently below the median, a not so well sealed bag of my own personal excrement will be mailed to the user.
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Tenesmus
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby Tenesmus » Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:03 am

I'm not exactly sure how to find them.


Dogwood: Park across the street from the dogwood camping area, walk into the camping area, take a left and hike parallel to the road for 2 minutes

The slips: If the water is low, park in the pullout on the north side of the canyon before the storm mtn picnic area, hike north across the gully to the base of the wall. If the water is high (maybe with all this rain), park across the street from the storm mtn picnic area, and follow the directions on the MP page to hike over storm mtn island.


+1 for internet self-awareness:
Bongeater buttress. After everyone has warmed up on the namesake, run some laps on prowser for fitness.


-1 for MM
zoso wrote:
Hook, line, and sinker.

Ha! I consider myself to be pretty adept at spotting trolls....now I'm not so sure about this one...

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BackClip
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby BackClip » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:12 pm

boissal wrote:You are one inarticulate idiot aren't you... Here, use the word epitome one more time, you might fool someone into believing you have something to say.
"Does your ass get jealous from all the shit that comes out of your mouth?"

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grk10vq
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Re: your mp moment of zen...

Postby grk10vq » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:00 pm

"deuschery"
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